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Massimo - Shared screen with speaker view
Heidi Harley
gotta get those geminates in, Andy!! maSSimo piaTTeLLi :)
John W. W. Powell
Yeah, I had a dead arm AND soreness in the underarm after Pfizer 2. Apparently it happens in like 1 in 8 people for the latter.
Brian Berrellez
Heidi Harley
Kámala vs Kamála
Heidi Harley
present perfect vs past tense
Natasha Warner (she/her)
Or it means a group of people rather than the abstract concept, right? “The good people, the bad people, and the ugly people”
Heidi Harley
Yes it can mean the people, like ‘the rich’ , ‘the poor’
Heidi Harley
but either way it’s not ‘the good one, the bad one and the ugly one’
Kristina Mihajlovic
doesn’t “blunder” imply a stupid or careless mistake? I don’t think it’s fair to categorize L2 stress phonology and QAnon conspiracies as both being of the same kind.
Kristina Mihajlovic
That *is* their word.
Natasha Warner (she/her)
Disagree. I’m totally confident that there’s no /l/ in it, it’s just that you perceive an /l/ in my pronunciation of it. It comes from overlap of the constrictions of neighboring sounds, but I have not re-analyzed it as having an /l/ present.
John W. W. Powell
I think Natasha brings up a good point.
Ryan Smith
Agree with Natasha and with Kristina
Kristina Mihajlovic
There is German English just like there is Spanish English and Singaporean English. they might not all have formal support, but they’re real Englishes.
Natasha Warner (she/her)
Sorry, I didn’t see Kristina’s chat comment before speaking!
Andrew Zupon
I think the mispronunciation isn't the blunder, but rather the refusal to correct oneself when told the correct pronunciation
Heidi Harley
I think that’s the point — there’s no way to feel ‘from the inside’ that there’s a mistake there, or that someone might say that normatively it’s ‘supposed’ to be something else
Heidi Harley
it presumes that people have a goal to do X and can’t do it. But I think the point that people are raising is that the normativity is relativistic. Right?
Kristina Mihajlovic
@Andrew: Good point. I learned that the Russian name “Anastasia” isn’t pronounced the way it is in Russian as it is in the TV show. Am I going to correct it now? no. everyone I speak to (except Russian speakers) know it by the American way. that’s my input and that’s my output. I think refusing to say the verb “byl” in Russian correctly would be stubbornism once I’d been corrected enough. not a blunder.
Kristina Mihajlovic
*as it is in the movie
Mike Hammond
Jaye Marie Ferrone
So neat! I pronounce Melbourne (Fl and Aus) really differently depending on which one I’m saying.. I always get local people ask me why I’m pronouncing Melbourne as Melbun when referring to the Australian city.
Kristina Mihajlovic
i just hope we can all understand the ramifications of characterizing L2 use as careless or stupid mistakes. that seems like a really harmful narrative.
John W. W. Powell
@Kristina brings up an important point.
Lucy Jane Hall Hartley
Yes @kristina
Robert Henderson
i definitely don't endorse that narrative. It's actually quite weird because i'm am not sure if massimo even endorses it because his own slides are full of counterarguments. he goes, this is a blunder, and here is a tight phonological correct explanation for it
Robert Henderson
it's quite disjointed
Natasha Warner (she/her)
So I think with L2 cases, the idea would be to focus only on those L2 usages where the speaker/writer clearly has a goal of speaking the language in as native-like a way as possible, _and_ someone has supplied the information about how their current pronunciation differs from native-like. Otherwise it wouldn’t be one of these persistent errors, it would be one of various other processes (L1 transfer that one hasn’t realized, use of language for prestige rather than sounding native-like, dialect differences in global Englishes, etc.).
Kristina Mihajlovic
@Natasha Yes. It’s also possible that the people being corrected might not perceive the correction.
Natasha Warner (she/her)
Yes, also excepting cases where someone supplies the info about native-like pronunciation and the speaker can’t hear the distinction they’re being corrected on.
Robert Henderson
exactly, and that is what the phonological explanations massimo presents would predict so the whole story is self contradictory
Gus Hahn-Powell
It seems like many of these “blunders” are strategic decisions to fit in with what is standard in a community, rather than coming across as (possibly) pretentious. There are certainly many cases of ignorance, but I think resisting correction after being informed, just demonstrates that acceptance within one’s community has greater value than being “correct”
Gus Hahn-Powell
^phonological blunders
Heidi Harley
a good term to bring into the L2 discussion would be ‘interlanguage grammar’. :)
Heidi Harley
a lot of these are reflexes… language processing is pretty much a reflex.
Robert Henderson
yeah this concept of blunder is not so theoretically useful
Kristina Mihajlovic
Gus’s point about belonging is huge. Variation is so often born in marginalized communities like LGBT and BIPOC. I don’t think everyone is being stubborn by being innovative.